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	<title>Comments on: Will Plug-in Hybrids Save Us From High Gas Prices?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/</link>
	<description>News For Drivers</description>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-13550</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Apr 2009 00:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-13550</guid>
		<description>Nobody seems to have mentioned that just as soon as electric vehicles start to make a dent in fuel sales, governments will jack up taxes on electricity to recapture the lost revenue.

Nobody has anticipated the flurry of new (and expensive) safety requirements that will come after the first electric-vehicle crash that shorts the battery.  You can fight a gasoline fire with foam, Purple K or CO2, but if a battery big enough to substitute for a tank of gas gets shorted, all you can do is protect your eyes from the arc and wait for it to burn out.  There are engineering solutions to this problem, but they will add to the weight and cost of the battery.

The real Murphy didn&#039;t say it, but it can be derived from Murphy&#039;s Law:
It&#039;s *never* as easy as it looks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody seems to have mentioned that just as soon as electric vehicles start to make a dent in fuel sales, governments will jack up taxes on electricity to recapture the lost revenue.</p>
<p>Nobody has anticipated the flurry of new (and expensive) safety requirements that will come after the first electric-vehicle crash that shorts the battery.  You can fight a gasoline fire with foam, Purple K or CO2, but if a battery big enough to substitute for a tank of gas gets shorted, all you can do is protect your eyes from the arc and wait for it to burn out.  There are engineering solutions to this problem, but they will add to the weight and cost of the battery.</p>
<p>The real Murphy didn&#8217;t say it, but it can be derived from Murphy&#8217;s Law:<br />
It&#8217;s *never* as easy as it looks.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleet admiral</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-8128</link>
		<dc:creator>Fleet admiral</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Jul 2008 03:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-8128</guid>
		<description>The only way this would work is if you had a battery that was charged during the day using solar panels, then discharged into the car at night.

But needless to say, the GERMANS have developed, and most likely will be the first to sell hydrogen cars, like they have their Mercedes fuel cell buses since 2004. So the point is moot.

VW is making a diesel electric hybrid, but for the Euro market only. It gets 70+ mpg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only way this would work is if you had a battery that was charged during the day using solar panels, then discharged into the car at night.</p>
<p>But needless to say, the GERMANS have developed, and most likely will be the first to sell hydrogen cars, like they have their Mercedes fuel cell buses since 2004. So the point is moot.</p>
<p>VW is making a diesel electric hybrid, but for the Euro market only. It gets 70+ mpg.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel M. Kauffman</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-5099</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel M. Kauffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 20:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-5099</guid>
		<description>Too bad no real figures for energy were used. For driving a vehicle with a Cd of 0.35 at 70 mph takes 30 hp, and the vehicle gets 30 mpg. If done for 1 h, then 2.33 gal of gasoline are used. At $4/gal this is $9.3 worth. It also means that 22 kWh are delivered to the drive wheels.
    For an electric to deliver 22 kWh to the drive wheels and heat/defrost the vehicle, 31 kWh are needed. Even at the 16¢/kWh I now pay, this is $5.
     In city traffic the electric would look even better, being off most of the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too bad no real figures for energy were used. For driving a vehicle with a Cd of 0.35 at 70 mph takes 30 hp, and the vehicle gets 30 mpg. If done for 1 h, then 2.33 gal of gasoline are used. At $4/gal this is $9.3 worth. It also means that 22 kWh are delivered to the drive wheels.<br />
    For an electric to deliver 22 kWh to the drive wheels and heat/defrost the vehicle, 31 kWh are needed. Even at the 16¢/kWh I now pay, this is $5.<br />
     In city traffic the electric would look even better, being off most of the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-4890</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 23:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-4890</guid>
		<description>Agreed Tom. The market price of electricity is far lower at night, and indeed becomes negative at some points and at some locations (it costs lots of money to shut down and start up big power plants!).

Furthermore, some visions of plug-in hybrids and the &quot;smart grid&quot; involve using PHEVs to store energy at night and sell it during the day to do peak shaving. This might finally introduce a non-trivial amount of storage capacity to the electric grid, an ability that would be very valuable to grid operators, particularly to smooth out the variations in power output of renewable sources such as wind and solar. In fact, a more in depth evaluation of the total cost of a PHEV should include the economic gains to the consumer of this possibility.

In addition, environmental gains will not just result after the grid gets &quot;cleaner&quot;, it would be very much a reality now. Large fossil plants are far more efficient than small vehicle engines. Centralized plants have hundreds of millions of dollars of air scrubbing technology that are not available on consumer vehicles. Furthermore, wind energy is typically highest at night when overall demand is lowest, a huge drawback for wind power. Smart metering that encourages people to charge up at night will be very beneficial towards using the large amounts of wind power that are projected to come online in the next decade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agreed Tom. The market price of electricity is far lower at night, and indeed becomes negative at some points and at some locations (it costs lots of money to shut down and start up big power plants!).</p>
<p>Furthermore, some visions of plug-in hybrids and the &#8220;smart grid&#8221; involve using PHEVs to store energy at night and sell it during the day to do peak shaving. This might finally introduce a non-trivial amount of storage capacity to the electric grid, an ability that would be very valuable to grid operators, particularly to smooth out the variations in power output of renewable sources such as wind and solar. In fact, a more in depth evaluation of the total cost of a PHEV should include the economic gains to the consumer of this possibility.</p>
<p>In addition, environmental gains will not just result after the grid gets &#8220;cleaner&#8221;, it would be very much a reality now. Large fossil plants are far more efficient than small vehicle engines. Centralized plants have hundreds of millions of dollars of air scrubbing technology that are not available on consumer vehicles. Furthermore, wind energy is typically highest at night when overall demand is lowest, a huge drawback for wind power. Smart metering that encourages people to charge up at night will be very beneficial towards using the large amounts of wind power that are projected to come online in the next decade.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-4872</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 05:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-4872</guid>
		<description>I agree that plug-in hybrids or even plain hybrids are not really ready for the mainstream public who wants to save money. But, for those who can afford to make a difference in the environment as well as reducing foreign oil consumption and still be able to drive a car that is similar to what we&#039;ve grown used to, they are the best options at the moment.

In regards to the electricity costs, you have to remember that plug-in hybrids will mainly be recharging at night. With the advent of smart utility meters (and they are coming, my friends!), there will be incentives from the electric companies to entice consumers to perform the recharging at night since power demands are lower. Power generators (gas, hydro, coal &amp; oil) won&#039;t have to waste away electricity that they cannot sell. After all, until they perfect the superconductor coils to store electricity with almost no loss, there currently is no method to store the power they generate at off-peak hours.

For me, I drive a non-hybrid Civic and ride my road bicycle @80-100 miles a week. I can wait until the technology gets a little more mainstream.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that plug-in hybrids or even plain hybrids are not really ready for the mainstream public who wants to save money. But, for those who can afford to make a difference in the environment as well as reducing foreign oil consumption and still be able to drive a car that is similar to what we&#8217;ve grown used to, they are the best options at the moment.</p>
<p>In regards to the electricity costs, you have to remember that plug-in hybrids will mainly be recharging at night. With the advent of smart utility meters (and they are coming, my friends!), there will be incentives from the electric companies to entice consumers to perform the recharging at night since power demands are lower. Power generators (gas, hydro, coal &amp; oil) won&#8217;t have to waste away electricity that they cannot sell. After all, until they perfect the superconductor coils to store electricity with almost no loss, there currently is no method to store the power they generate at off-peak hours.</p>
<p>For me, I drive a non-hybrid Civic and ride my road bicycle @80-100 miles a week. I can wait until the technology gets a little more mainstream.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-4866</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 May 2008 15:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-4866</guid>
		<description>The comparison is IF you bought a DIFFERENT small car that has a 15 Gal tank, and you use that up every week at $5/Gal. After 3 years, you would have spent $12,000. Which is approximately the premium paid for the Volt. 

I think the point was that for those of us who can afford to pay more to reduce pollution is a fine deal, but those who are seeing plug-ins as a way to save on fuel cost, we have a way to go yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comparison is IF you bought a DIFFERENT small car that has a 15 Gal tank, and you use that up every week at $5/Gal. After 3 years, you would have spent $12,000. Which is approximately the premium paid for the Volt. </p>
<p>I think the point was that for those of us who can afford to pay more to reduce pollution is a fine deal, but those who are seeing plug-ins as a way to save on fuel cost, we have a way to go yet.</p>
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		<title>By: mlganser3</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-4852</link>
		<dc:creator>mlganser3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 18:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-4852</guid>
		<description>Johannas has right to be confused by this piece of pro-oil propaganda.

My Hybrid Civic has a 13 gallon tank, and I get around 500 miles (plus or minus, depending on the weather) per tank.  Maybe Mr. Peters commutes 50 miles each way, but doubtful.

The other big argument is that by plugging in, the hybrid really isn&#039;t helping because that power needs to come from somewhere.  This is true, but hopefully as the grid gets away from carbon-based fuels (gas, oil, coal are all bad, despite the commercials) plugging in a car is much cleaner than filling up.

Frankly, I&#039;d much rather live downwind from a nuclear plant than a coal plant any day.

Lastly, if the argument only comes back to money, then the author should ride a bike or take a bus.  As with any new technology, it will not be necessarily financially sound until the technology matures. 

If the equation is financially break even(which I&#039;ll admit may be true - today), then money is a moot point.  That said, the choice is to pollute or not to pollute.  I&#039;d rather not, even if it does cost a negligible amount more each year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Johannas has right to be confused by this piece of pro-oil propaganda.</p>
<p>My Hybrid Civic has a 13 gallon tank, and I get around 500 miles (plus or minus, depending on the weather) per tank.  Maybe Mr. Peters commutes 50 miles each way, but doubtful.</p>
<p>The other big argument is that by plugging in, the hybrid really isn&#8217;t helping because that power needs to come from somewhere.  This is true, but hopefully as the grid gets away from carbon-based fuels (gas, oil, coal are all bad, despite the commercials) plugging in a car is much cleaner than filling up.</p>
<p>Frankly, I&#8217;d much rather live downwind from a nuclear plant than a coal plant any day.</p>
<p>Lastly, if the argument only comes back to money, then the author should ride a bike or take a bus.  As with any new technology, it will not be necessarily financially sound until the technology matures. </p>
<p>If the equation is financially break even(which I&#8217;ll admit may be true &#8211; today), then money is a moot point.  That said, the choice is to pollute or not to pollute.  I&#8217;d rather not, even if it does cost a negligible amount more each year.</p>
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		<title>By: Johannas</title>
		<link>http://blog.motorists.org/will-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/comment-page-1/#comment-4831</link>
		<dc:creator>Johannas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 18:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.motorists.org/blog/car-reviews/can-plug-in-hybrids-save-us-from-high-gas-prices/#comment-4831</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m confused.  The article states:

&quot;Five bucks per times, say, 15 gallons (the typical capacity of a current-year small car). Ok. That is $75 for a full tank. Assume a tank lasts one week. That means a monthly fuel bill of $300 — or about $3,600 annually. Let’s round it off to $4,000 per year. That means (roughly) you’d need to drive the Volt for about three years before reaching the “break even” point relative to a new Prius.&quot;

I would hope that a Volt would not require a full 15 gallons of gas every week, being that it is a mostly electric engine.  Have I missed something?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m confused.  The article states:</p>
<p>&#8220;Five bucks per times, say, 15 gallons (the typical capacity of a current-year small car). Ok. That is $75 for a full tank. Assume a tank lasts one week. That means a monthly fuel bill of $300 — or about $3,600 annually. Let’s round it off to $4,000 per year. That means (roughly) you’d need to drive the Volt for about three years before reaching the “break even” point relative to a new Prius.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would hope that a Volt would not require a full 15 gallons of gas every week, being that it is a mostly electric engine.  Have I missed something?</p>
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