Red-Light Camera Mistakenly Tickets Soldier Serving In Iraq
The majority of people are at least somewhat uncomfortable with the idea of a machine like a red-light camera writing traffic tickets on its own. Realizing this, cities that install ticket cameras always assure concerned citizens that the tickets will not be automated and that an officer will look at each ticket that comes through and make sure that a mistake wasn’t made.
In theory, it sounds like a legitimate protection for motorists against unfair tickets.
In practice, because of the large volume of tickets that the cameras generate and limited staffing (to boost camera profitability), the officers supervising the ticketing process end up just trying to get through as many tickets as possible in the shortest amount of time.
This inevitably leads to simple errors that cause innocent people to spend hours in court fighting tickets that they would never have received had an actual officer been there to give the ticket instead of a machine.
King 5 News in Seattle, Washington uncovered an clear example of this in action:
Arnie Henyan knows all about those cameras and the tickets that come with them.
“The first one was dated May 28, and I got it in early June,” he said. “Three months later, I got another one… Early January, I received a third one, from the city of SeaTac. Same car, same plate.”
The tickets were issued to his son, who owns a 1998 Honda Coupe with the license 470-MOI. Arnie fought the tickets, insisting his son was innocent.
“I kind of laughed, because it’s an impossibility,” Henyan said. “He’s in Iraq. Has been since April.”
How did this happen three times with officers reviewing every ticket by hand?
So how did the sergeant get ticketed while at war?
If you look closely at the photo taken by the red light camera: the license plate is actually 470-MDI – not MOI. Officers approve all tickets before they go out. But both Lakewood and SeaTac misread the “D” for an “O.” And they missed another clue: The photos show a silver sedan running a red.
“It’s a silver car and my son’s is black. It’s a four-door car and my son’s is a two-door coupe,” Arnie Henyan said.
The defense offered by Lakewood Police Department:
Lakewood police say not all that car data is sent to them for the verification process.
“Our officers are approving hundreds of these every week,” said Lt. Heidi Hoffman, of Lakewood police. “I think it could improve if the verification system showed more complete vehicle registration data on the screen that our officers are using to process these citations.”
This is not acceptable.
If the police department doesn’t have the staff and resources to safeguard the public from unfair tickets, they should never have installed the cameras.
It’s easy for camera promoters to say, “Well, if you get an unfair ticket, you can always go fight it in court and it will be dismissed.” But in reality, there is a cost to an individual when they are forced to fight an unfair ticket. The process involves extra paperwork, a trip to court, and taking off time from work. That’s why many times people just decide it’s less of a hassle to write a check even when they’ve done nothing wrong.
The bottom line is that an innocent driver should never have to fix the government’s mistake. Especially not on their own time. And especially not when it could have easily been avoided if the city’s focus had been on safety instead of automatic revenue generators like red-light ticket cameras.
Image Credit: Dan4th
E.Meyers is out of his mind. There’s a loose cannon right there. Obviously doesn’t appreciate a true fascism if he thinks a red light ticket is a manifestation of that. WOW.
Oh, and J.Young…it’s been proven through years of tried and true research that speeding, or traveling above the speed limit in a certain areas (or any area, for that matter) would cause the severity of a crash to be magnified due to the harder impact. So whine all you want about LE and their toys…who’s doing what they’re not supposed to be doing? Don’t be upset that you got caught not doing what you were supposed to be doing.
waiting to make a left turn… People gotta know that you pull to the middle of the intersection, [not wait behind the line]then when the oncoming traffic finishes you go. That way it doesn’t leave 5 cars in back of you stuck at the light.
Just to correct “Texas Cop’s” remark regarding Mr. Bush evesdropping as being administered under the FISA court…That’s the problem, the Bush Administration BYPASSED the FISA Court. And Waco? Hmmm. A guy like Koresh practicing child molestation daily? Seems like a better use of police power than an evening checkpoint to me.
The overarching issue here is the slow death of our Constitutional Rights. First its seat belts, then its red light cameras, then its okay to do what next? All for a good cause — public safety. How can one argue with that?
Regarding the “privilege” of driving. I have never bought into that tripe. We HAVE to drive in the U.S. since public transit is so poor and the country is so vast. But since politicians have describe the activity as a privilege, they can abridge the Constitution and “take” it away administratively without due process. If its public safety that is the concern,focus should be on insuring skills are learned and practiced in driving. A 15 minute road test around the block just does not cut it for skills assessment.
Regarding Enforcement, why speeding and red light cameras? Because its EASY and LUCRATIVE. What about following too close, not paying full time and attention, camping out in the left lane obstucting traffic, vehicles in poor condition, overloaded vehicles, failure to signal, etc.?
Cudos for John Doe. I’ve been on the department for over 22 years, and it only gets worse about the complaining. I’m a detective now and we still hear the same complaints from people we investigate and put in jail pursuant to our investigations. We are in a no win situation, but it is our calling and we do the best we can. Good luck.
Hey guys, lighten up some. I am a cop, not retired, not a wanna be. In reading the posts here, there are some really good comments but a lot of crap as well. As in any profession, there are those that do a good job and those that should never have been given a badge and a gun. I have worked with several that fit into the last category, but most fit within the first. And yes, I have gotten tickets as well, once while on duty in another city in an unmarked car because of the actions of one of our officers that took his job extremely seriously without regard to anyones status in life, occupation, affiliation or whatever you want to call it. He was a traffic cop and that was his job….writing tickets. Most city cops are not traffic cops. We answer calls for service for any reason from a child misbehaving in school where the parents won’t take the respopnsibility to be parents to homicides. How diverse is your occupation in that respect? I am not so naive as to say that quotas don’t exist. But I can say that in my department, we have none. Some people tried once (which is illegal in Texas by the way) and the supervisors were punished by the administration and the officers told to write a certain number of tickets rebelled and refused to write any because it was wrong. Painting with a braod brush is a very dangerous game that most of you are doing on this site. Yes, there are bad cops, but the majority, at least 95% or more are the really good ones. Keep in mind as well, we don’t make the laws, but we took an oath to enforce them, whether we agree with them or not. And until the Supreme Court rules them unconstitutional or the legislators take the law off the books, it is our job to enforce it. Yes we do use some discretion on certain things so that not everyone goes to jail everytime they do something wrong, but if we need to we do. They are called tools. And keep in mind, most felons are taken off the streets due to traffic stops, so don’t just assume we are harrassing people to fill an imaginary wet dream of yours, we might actually be taking the burglar, robber, rapist, child molester or murderer off the streets that was on his or her way to your house.
I don’t particulary like the red light cameras either…they got me in my personal car once and I paid the fine (civil fine, not a traffic fine, there is a difference, look it up) because it was my responsibility. Is any system perfect? No, but right now it’s the best we have to try to slow down crashes at intersections. And contrary to some beliefs here, it does seem to be working some. Other local agencies hace seen a reduction in intersection crashes involving the running of red lights and the number of red light citations are actually going down to the point that it is costing their city more to run the cameras than it is bringing in to the city’s coffers, but they are keeping the cameras because, at least for this one city anyway, they seem to be working to the desired effect…traffic safety. My wife was involved in an intersection crash a few years back with my kids. She was hurt pretty bad in the hand and has some difficulty with some things, but generally ok. I wished that there was a red light camera there then. It would have actually shown what happened instead of the other driver lying and getting away with it.
Check with your local departments and see if they have any ride along programs. That was the best suggestion I have seen on this site so far. Here, we have a Citizens Police Academy. Civilians such as yourself go to some training put on by different officers and entities within the department and the prosecutors office and they have a ride along phase as well with various different officers. If you don’t have one, try to get one started. It has opened a lot of eyes to people who complained all the time, such as this site, and they are actually providing us support in different areas now as well becasue they actually know what we are doing now.
If some of you really want to be taken seriously, stay away from the name calling. We are not Gestapo agents or KGB. I was born in Texas and am an American. I will defend the Constitution to my death if need be. I actually went on vacation to Washington D.C this year and saw the constitution, Declaration of Independence and tons more history. It was very moving and the most inspirational vacation I have ever taken. But it reminds me of how broken our current politicians are who have forgotten the basic tenets of the Constitution. If you haven’t ever gone, you should do the same at least once in your life.
I would be more worried about politicians wanting to take away your rights before I would worry about the police doing it. In one of the examples given here, the Ruby Ridge, Florida and Waco incidents kept coming up. Did anyone catch the common denominator in those incidents? The Clinton’s and Democrats (Liberal’s actually). I know, I know, some will whine “What about the illegal eavesdropping of citizens by Bush and Cheney? Huh, what about that?” Read the law and the practices. It is being administered by FISA laws and it is concerning incoming communications from outside the US. Our constitutional rights do not extend past our borders, unless you live in an Embassy somewhere. But then again, your not talking about the police, your talking about politicians and government policies/treaties. Local police have nothing to do with that so why even bring it up in these forums?
Mr. Young is wrong on a few account in his response to “Dibber” Files. Again I can only speak for Texas law so it may be different in your areas. First, he’s partially correct in stating that the red light cameras are designed for people willfully running the red light, but also for people who accidentally run the red light as well. ROW violations knows no differnce in a crash. If you enter the intersection on a yellow (any part of your car, even the bumper), and then the light turns red, you have the right to proceed and clear the intersection and you have not technically ran the red light. I presume that was what he was talking about when he mentioned people that enter the intersection late. If not and he was saying that they entered the intersection late after the light turned red prior to them getting to the intersection, guess what, they ran the red light.
I do agree to some extent that the municipalities do look at revenue being generated by cameras, but as cited earlier, in at least one local city, those revenues have dramatically decreased because the violations have dramatically decreased in their intersections identified as “most dangerous”. Works for some, may not for others, so stay away from your over eagerness to condemn them all.
As far as “high mileage speeders”, we usually give about 10 mph over, except school zones then it’s about 5. Want to know what the difference is? Ask an emergency room doctor. Better yet, test it yourself. Find a parking lot, go at different speeds and try to stop at a certain point. Put up cones in front of your car, they represent people in a crosswalk. Apply your brakes at roughly the same place every time, but each time, gradually increase your speed by 5 or 10 mph. Maybe you will educate yourself on “what difference does it make”.
And being fair to “Dibber” Files, when he was describing various different things such as “high mileage speeders — people driving 90mph and thinking 55mph; people driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs; or people constantly running red lights” if you will notice he seperated each point with a semicolon, making different points but not necessarliy saying they were all related. He used proper grammar. (I teach report report wirting as well. Not perfect as you will most likely find typos in this thing. That’s because I am not a typist, but I do my best.)
Also, keep in mind that everyone has a different opinion on what is dangerous for them as opposed to someone such as yourself. Something I may think is perfectfly safe you may find to be outrageously dangerous (such as searching a house or building for a burglar) or the other way around (such as speeding, remember “what difference does it make”…yeah right). Try not to impose your thoughts on someone else and belittle them for what they believe. If you do, then you are taking away their rights in a free society to be a free thinker. Others would say that is a Liberal way of thinking…Remember the Clinton references earlier?
I also believe that in a lot of situations that Government over reaches it’s authority on things….smoking bans, cell phone bans, etc…I’m not a big fan of a big Government. That’s why there is a Second Amendment. If they do away with that Right, not a privilege sucha s driving, but a Right, then the next step will be similar to Germany in the 1930′s. (Look close, I said “they”, politicians and their wacked out activists who think they know what is good for me…sounds like some of you here on this thing, but I digress). Unfortunately, we still have to enforce unpopular laws from time to time. Just keep in mind, we don’t write them or enact them, but we get the blame anyway for something that is beyond our control.
Maybe next time you see a cop, instead of complaining, how about thanking him and shaking his hand. You might find we are made of flesh and blood too, with families and kids that love us very much. Go to a cops funeral that was killed in the line of duty. You will see something that you aren’t supposed to see. A bunch of ‘hardened” cops crying for a lost friend, or even someone we don’t know. And most are killed in traffic accidents involving all we have discussed here.
I am a police officer in suburban Detroit and I have my own opinion on the issue. I agree with many of the people who wrote regards to the fact that traffic enforcement can seriously harm law enforcements relationship with the community. I also agree with the fact that taking officers off of foot patrol and putting them cars has isolated them from the public to come degree. That being said, traffic enforcement it still has its place. You would not believe how many calls our office is flooded with by citizens demanding officers stop on their street and write violations to speeders. We have had more than one person stomp into our city council meetings demanding that officers sit on their street and write speeders. So an officer will go there and legitimately write speeders and those people will pop up on this site and call us the facist police, ofcourse alleging that they were stopped for going 1mph over the limit ect….ect… It is a really a no win position law enforcement.
I have only been a police officer for three years and have come to some serious realizations, with my live prior to law enforcement fresh in my memory. I have come to realize how far people will go to lie about their contact with a police officer. I used to hear growing up, how the “mean corrupt” officer stopped a poor sole for 1mph over the limit and issued him a ticket, or lied completely about how fast they were going just to make the revenue quotas. So I started on the job and regularly stopped legitimate violators, to only see them look me straight in the face and call me a liar. I firmly believe that people will convince themselves they are being victimized in attempt to avoid responsibility. People will argue over the color of the sky and insist it is purple.
I looked up my city on this site and found a few “speed traps” listed on there I know they were a result of me because im the only officer who sits is those spots. I found myself chuckling at what people said about it. I know in my heart that I stop people who are legitimately speeding (13+ over) and out of anger, these people will put anything up on a website to make the officer (myself) look bad. I guess an act of venting.
I have one last point I like to make. I have to admit I do not know what many other departments are like. I suppose there are a few departments throughout this country that put maximum pressure on officers to write tickets. And I will admit that there are some officers that do get a power trip over writing tickets. That being said, its not the overall truth. Most officers find traffic enforcement to be a nuisance. Many officers find writing tickets to be a boring job. There are very few academy recruits who think to themselves “I cant wait to get out on the streets and write people for 10 over”. No, they are out there for the excitement of the job. They want to catch the robbery suspect, or the car thief in progress. Im sorry, its the public’s own ignorance to assume that police officers sign for the job to write tickets.
I am convinced at this point that when people think of police officers, they think of Robo Cop, or Judge Dred, a person without emotion. Its not true in any way. The truth is, most people have no idea what a police officer’s job is like. They have not been there for one minute, but think they have it all figured out.
The “red light” tickets are not about law enforcement. It’s all about income for the cities. The people who are responsible are not really interested about law enforcement. Just take a look. There’s a sales persosn that is selling the cameras, equipment, etc. He’s a sales person just selling a product. He wants to sell more and more. Then there is the city council person that sees revenue. She does not care where the money comes from, just as long as the city coffers have their share. Then there’s the police chief. His story is always, “We don’t have enough officers”. Then there is the police offier who would rather spend time operating a radar gun than patrolling the streets and ticketing real red light runners. Then there’s the public. Very few will show an interest by attending public hearings on matters such as this. Then there are the reviewers of the photos. Apparently they can’t tell the difference between a “number” and a “letter”. I couldn’t either from some of the samll fuzzy photos I have seen as taken from the red light cameras. Is all this a mess–or what!!!!Where are the true “professionals” when it comes to matters such as this? Why can’t city government get back to absics in running city government and why can’t police department get back to basic police enforcment?
As a retired person I would value a “ride-along” with the police or CHP in an attempt to understand the situations faced by our law enforcement officers. Can the local CHP or law enforcement officers help us understand the challenges faced during the couse of their shift. What procedures are faced during their day/nite shift that will assist us as civilians to understand their tour of duty and help us to understand them in their meetings. Respectfully always, Joe Schuessler
Some great comments, I especially liked the post from the retired PO from Long Island.
I had an eye-opening experience with a good friend who is a Sargeant with a PD in a city of approx 100,000 in So. Cal. He took me on a “ride along” through his entire shift and I got to see first hand how he dealt with stressful situations, really bad people, unfortunate / poor people, average citizens, and conflicting priorities.
Most cities have community outreach programs that allow citizens to participate in a ride-along and I highly recommend it if you want to see what it’s really like.
Where does it all end? Primary seat belt enforcement laws, red light cameras, speed cameras, roadblocks, car seat checks, etc., etc.! Every time you turn around the government is sticking its nose in your business further and further. The cameras are just a way of “taxing” the public in the name of public safety. In Knoxville, TN, if you contest the ticket and lose, you pay court costs and get a point on your license. If you pay, you just get tagged for $50. What does that tell you? Its not about justice, its about the $50. For the record, I don’t see the big “epidemic” in red light running anywhere. Where do the stats come from? I’ll bet the studies are poorly controlled and the data are spurious at best.
Seat belts. Where is the “compelling PUBLIC interest?” Don’t tell me about the lost work days etc. due to injuries, because the flu is even more dangerous in this regard. How about compelling people to get the flu shot and if they don’t and get the disease, fine them $500? The argument for the “public good” is no different.
Car seats. Now the government is taking my child to raise. I am a fan of the seats, don’t get me wrong, but government enforcement? I think not.
Roadblocks. There is a basic presumption of guilt here – especially when you LEGALLY avoid the roadblock and get snagged by the “wolf in weeds.” What happened to the Constitution? Oh, I forgot, driving is a PRIVILEDGE not a right. That little distinction is the camel’s nose under the tent that permits all sorts of transgressions against law abiding citizens.
A while ago my daughter was harassed by a patrol cop because she got up from bed and went and picked up a friend that over imbibed at a local bar. She was in her pajamas with a coat on and got grilled about her travels. She finally demanded that she be taken to a location where an certified BAC could be collected whereupon the officer (to his credit) dropped the issue. When asked why she was stopped, the cop said she “rolled through a stop sign.” That’s funny, since she saw him fall in behind her and was double careful to obey all traffic signals and signs. Fact is the cop lied to secure probable cause for the stop. Cops regularly lie to justify their unlawful acts and secure convictions (I’ve seen it on more than one occassion). So much for being responsible and doing the right thing. We need to end these Gastapo like tactics.
In short, its really all about the money. Not safety. How about if they just triple the fines and drop entry of all but the most egregious violations into driving records. I’m sure most will just pony up as a cost of driving. If safety is really the concern, you would see more tickets written for improper lane changes, following too close, not paying full time and attention, vehicles that are in poor repair, etc.
James, I’m not sure Mr “ “Dibber” Flies” is capable of ingesting all the facts available on this NMA web site as well as the fountains of information on other sites that contradicts his simplistic view about red lights and speeding. This is the same kind of guy who will tell the government to take all his rights away to protect him. Everybody else is an idiot except them. I’ve known a couple of these type guys at work with a similar mentality. I’ve also had the opportunity to observe their driving from time to time and they are among the worst drivers. At age 61 once in my lifetime I may have seen one driver travel 90 mph or more. Some people like to dramatize. Oh and while your at it Mr. Dibbler, check out http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/22/2214.asp entitled “Louisiana: Parade Goers Seek to End Traffic Cameras”.
Dibber Flies writes:
{Second, running red lights has become a bad epidemic in our country and it has to be stopped!!}
That’s just not true. There has been no significant increase in red-light violations nor in crashes resulting from a ROW violation. The overwhelming majority of red-light violations are for the vehicle that entered the intersection late and gets caught part way across, not the people who willfully ignore such lights.
{ Unfortunately, police departments and cities do not have enough resources or money to post officers at each traffic light; so there needs to be a better way to enforce it. Cameras provide that opportunity.}
Red light cameras are not a deterrent because the disconnect between the act and the notification of it can be months. Camera systems are sold by private companies on the basis of revenue generated for the municipality willing to prostitute themselves.
{But, we have had enough of high mileage speeders — people driving 90mph and thinking 55mph; people driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs; or people constantly running red lights to pick up that half-minute.}
What is a “high mileage speeder”? Upwards of 90% of drivers will exceed the limit during their drives, but at what point do they become “high mileage speeders”? 20K miles a year? 50K miles a year? More? And more importantly, what difference does it make?
Second, you conflate speeders – which is essentially everybody – with impaired drivers (alcohol and drugs) and with drivers deliberately violating a ROW rule.
{None of us have any God given rights to endanger the lives of our fellow citizens!!!}
Of course, that is true. However, you appear to be very confused as to what acts create what degree of danger.
I read some of these comments on traffic light cameras — and am really surprised at some of the idiots who post here!!
First off, you – or NO ONE – has a right to run traffic lights; not a right promised by the constitution, or a God giver right. You might have someone’s blessing to go out and kill yourself in a car, but, for God’s sake, just drive the car off a cliff. DON’T JEOPARDIZE SOME INNOCENT CITIZEN BY RUNNING A RED LIGHT!!!!
First off, running a red light is like playing Russian Roulette with 5 bullets in the gun — your chances of winning are dim.
Second, running red lights has become a bad epidemic in our country and it has to be stopped!! Unfortunately, police departments and cities do not have enough resources or money to post officers at each traffic light; so there needs to be a better way to enforce it. Cameras provide that opportunity. And, I think cities/states should put the camera question on an election ballot and see what support it gets in an election —- I’d guess 60-75% of the people would support them. I will support them for both running red lights and for speeding — as will most of the populace of our great nation!!! And, yeah, someone will make a profit creating the cameras (as do the people who make radar detectors)!! That happens in a free enterprise country.
I am not an active or retired police officer, but I support them all — even when they are writing me a speeding ticket (yep, I am not a cherry on that).
But, we have had enough of high mileage speeders — people driving 90mph and thinking 55mph; people driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs; or people constantly running red lights to pick up that half-minute.
None of us have any God given rights to endanger the lives of our fellow citizens!!!
Dibber Flies – a concerned citizen
NYC has a ticket blitz going on every time the city needs to balance the over spending of politicians.
We gave out all kinds of erroneous tickets knowing most drivers would rather pay for a parking ticket then go to court to fight it and the same with light tickets.
Rather then hitting people with higher taxes the PVB (ticket agents) were told and at the squad meetings we told what the quota was, that is why certain times of the month more tickets are given out.
The orders come directly from city hall and its not just the police or traffic agents it goes for the department of sanitation as well to harass small business and private homes with regard to recyclable garbage, snow removal and it trickles down to even the building department and ECB violations as it would appear every democrap in NYC has their hand out for some funding of a pet project.
If people are placed on welfare they are owned by the politicians as the folks free loading off the tax payers consider it an entitlement as long as they vote for their care givers like the Clinton’s and Dinking and other politicians who are above the law when it comes to not paying taxes or looting the White house or lying before a grand Jury or killing people like the Kennedy clan are known for.
The innocent must pay for the guilty as the folks to lazy to work are to be taken care of by the folks who pay unfounded tickets it is the nature of the beast and the police are told to meet a quota or else.
Wait until HELLery gets in then see the federal government stat going on a ticket blitz forcing big business to leave this country as it is no longer feasible to produce in a factory with so many government restrictions
Thanks for your insight Dave from Long Island, NY. I really don’t know why any reasonable person would want to be a cop under those circumstances. As is often the case, we see posts from cops on these bloggs, while those may have been your experiences in NY, giving drivers a break (warning, to your credit) is almost non-existent in the Tulsa Oklahoma. If you get stopped your gonna get a ticket…case closed. Plus sneaking around in unmarked police vehicles to write traffic tickets have put the driving public in greater peril because of the constant threat of impostors….all for misdemeanor violations. But I guess a rape or worse once in awhile is worth the cost of doing business.
As usual James Young has summed it up very well. The last paragraph is the magic bullet. It also happens to be the very hardest to accomplish. I’ve been a NMA member for longer then I can remember, probably at least 20 years. It was apparent to me that far back that we needed political solutions to traffic control issues, speed traps in particular.
Political solutions require involvement and in a society that is known for it’s lack of it, it’s tough to get even a few people together. One person will only sound like a peep in a sea of lobbyist who are constantly harping about more traffic laws to screw the driving public. I’ve pretty much thrown in the towel in my state but I remain hopeful that some of the younger generation will get involved. Civics class needs to be stressed more in school. I’ve never believed it was enough just to go vote. Our legislators need to know how we feel on issues.
James is also quite correct as law enforcement has managed to isolate themselves from the public. If they’ve got time to run speed traps then they’ve got time to get out of their vehicles, walk around and communicate with people even if it’s just a “Hi, how are you”. That’s just not in most cops nature. You can debate the psychology behind this but I believe it has a lot to do with the type of people that become cops, but that’s a subject for another day.
About 15 years ago I was instrumental in getting a Citizens Police Commission started in my fair city. Problem was it was established by a number of outgoing city council members so it was never supported by the new members. Each council member got to nominate two members. New council members wouldn’t nominate anybody. We eventually lost enough members that we dropped blow a quorum and then there was no sense in continuing. I also believe the police chief didn’t wanted us either surprise….NOT! We did however meet long enough to develop, distribute and collect survey data. It was a brief survey of about 10 questions and room for some essay questions. The survey went over pretty well. One of the questions that I contributed was about citizens input on traffic control. About 70 percent said citizens thought there wasn’t enough input. One of our goals of course was to develop better relations between the police and the citizens. We wanted the police and the public to work together to solve problems rather then be solders of their own institution, a lofty goal I might add. We had a lot of good ideas and and I still believe a Citizens Police Commission is a good idea. As long as LEO’s and PD’s continue to have the “I don’t give a damn what they think” attitude, their relationship with the community will continue to suffer. Again, I think it has a lot to do with the type of people who become cops.
I am a retired police officer from the Nassau County, NY Police Department on Long Island. I spend most of my time in the Highway Patrol Bureau (HPB). I was a very active cop, made a ridiculous amount of DWI & other arrests and wrote an ungodly amount of tickets.
For every ticket I wrote I probably let 3-4 people go with a warning.. there were enough assh*les out there with attitudes that I could afford to let 80% of people go – the assh*le business was plentiful.
You may be surprised at what I am about to write below.
First of all, yes there is a quota. Yes you have a much higher probability of getting a ticket at the end of the month due to the quota system. This is due to several facts, but suffice to say that most cops drag their feet about filling the quota (weather, taking days off, whatever) so they fill it at the last possible moment (some cops get off on the power trip of tickets – but that is another story) which means they are all looking to write tickets at the end of the month. Fact.
The insurance companies and the police departments/sheriff departments/troopers are all built around business models and have shared a very close relationship for quite a long time.
In theory police departments are supposed to protect life & liberty, but for the most part insurance companies have successfully lobbied & pushed to the point where speeding tickets, red light tickets, seat belt tickets & DUI arrests are a top priority for ticket/arrest quotas (forget patrolling the back streets for real criminals, burglars, drug dealers, sc*mbags, guns, etc – there is a poor return on investment in that venue; locking up criminals costs money rather than creating revenue).
Why is this? Because strict enforcement of red light tickets, seat belt tickets & DUI arrests reduces injuries and accidents. Now a reasonable person would think that is a good thing, and it is. But insurance companies want lower accident & injury rates so they pay out less = the insurance company SAVES MONEY = higher profits. But at what cost? Police departments have limited manpower and for every minute a cop is sitting on an intersection writing red light tickets, or parked down the block from a bar waiting to pounce on a drunk, or sitting at a corner looking for someone not wearing a seat belt, that is time not spent looking for the real criminals of our society).
Note: I was called into my Captain’s office once because I was making too many gun collars & other arrests that did not have priority status- I am serious. I actually had to defend why I was locking up guys with stolen cars, illegal weapons, criminal warrants, etc. Sad but true.
There are areas where you live called HAFLs or high accident frequency locations. Insurance companies pump sh*tloads of $$ into police departments as “grants” so that cops will book grant time of say 8 hours after their tour or perhaps on a day off. The cop on grant overtime (usually red light overtime, seat belt, speeders or DUI OT) is required to write 10-30 tickets in that tour based on the type of grant, make a DUI arrest, etc… all paid by the insurance companies. Faiure to make quota means you will not get the grant again.
Note: DUI arrests specifically make money for the local police department/government. Example – you get locked up for DUI. Beyond all the other crap you have to deal with, there is a fine due, such as $500.00 to the court or county once you are convicted. Real criminals such as burglars, etc do not pay fines.. they go to jail (for the most part). DUI arrests mandate fines that stay in the local coffers of that county (or state sometimes). Money money and more money. In Nassua County, our police department alone (sans the Troopers, etc) were amking an average of 5-6,000 DUI arrests a year. 6,000 x $500 per = about $3 million dollars annually just in DUI fines.
It is simple, pour money into ticket enforcement at certain HAFLs = lower red lights, higher use of seat belts = lower accidents & injuries = more profit for insurance companies.
Now I have explained this in layman’s terms, but there is some very scientific data that shows for every dollar an insuance company pays out for ticket grants, lobbying, etc they save more than a dollar in medical & property damage payouts.
Now for everything I have written here someone will dispute it or dent it, because everyone at all levels of government will deny there are quotas and certainly deny that police departments have changed their business models to now simply make money for their local, county or state government.
When I was a cop we were not allowed to speak with reporters or anyone who would ask such questions. We would be suspended & disciplined if we ignored orders on this subject.
Now regarding these automated cameras for red lights… it is simply a cash machine for government, many of these paid for by insurance companies… even cheaper than paying a cop overtime to sit there and write tickets on grant money. The camera works 24/7, does not get tired, does not let people go with a warning, never stops. The problem is that cameras make mistakes. Some people should be let go with just a warning, some should not, but a camera does not care.
There is probably a quota for the cop who has to look at the camera pictures, such as 80% of the pictures should be forwarded for fines, etc (I have no first hand knowledge of this, only theory).
Just my opinion & experiences. I am now retired, I do not to deal with the bullsh*t internal policies against doing real police work anymore, I now have free will.
Have a great day!
One thing law enforcement has learned from the Nazi’s start taking away peoples right slowly and then the rest will fall also.
It starts very innocent enough by pitting folks against each other like gun registration then confiscation then having big brother monitor your movements via easy pass and by monitoring traffic with cameras.
After the right is taken away the other will fall lie a deck of cards.
For example after the Ruby Ridge killings by the Clinton regime and getting away with murder they settled out of court wrongful death action then knowing that the US citizens will not take any action the Clinton regime of terror used attack dog Janet Reno to massacre men, women and children at Wako Texas where 90 people were slaughtered.
Being unstoppable Clinton then sent Janet using gestapo tactics to break in a home in Florida in the middle of the night using fully automatic “assault firearms”
Amazingly Americans said or did nothing to stop this out of control regime.
Touche on all your comments here. It is very refreshing to know that other Americans share these truths. Our “Great” nation has slowly become the “Nanny State” described herein. If “law enforcement” actually did get to know the “people”, then these “money-makers” would lose too much revenue.
Hiding not only behind tangible “traps”, but also hiding behind their badges, egos & facisism philosphies. The government’s use of all methods to generate revenue is not about “safety”, it is what it is…Money! But why do they use this communistic/socialistic tactic? What is the real agenda? Why do they need all this money?
I contend that “law enforcement” is not about safety; not about protecting the rights of it’s citizens. It has become “them” against “us”. The very reason, our forefathers came to the Americas; to become free!
My dear friends, it is only a matter of time until we as citizens must take back control. Every law is against us! We are no longer self-governing! We have, indeed, become the United Socialists of America…
In the words of Baja Joes: “Give me liberty or give me death”! & “Live free or die”!
Spot On James Young,
I could not agree more with your view about how traffic enforement does more to mold the public perception of law enforcement than anything else. From a very young age as a passenger with my dad, I learned to “fear” Law Enforement while he tried to avoid getting caught exceeding the 55MPH nationwide limit.
Way to go Baja! I think the government knows they can’t get older people to submit to their intrusions as easily as they can get younger people to. That’s why the real ID starts with people under 50.
Law enforcement as an institution has gotten itself into a huge mess. Not too many years ago, the beat cop walked his patrol area, knew and talked with the people in that area and viewed with some suspicion those things that were out of place. This went by the way side when LE put their guys in cars, virtual soundproof cocoons, separated from the people and the businesses, and the officers lost contact with the people.
Now, they view everything with suspicion – exacerbated by the explosion of nanny-state laws. Instead of the mindset that the corner merchant could be robbed by a criminal, they now have the mindset to determine which intrusive nanny-law the corner merchant or the traveler has violated. In harsher terms, they no longer look to protect the people against harm but to secure as many violators as they can without regard to the actual harm.
The traffic stop has become the singular most common interface between officer and citizen and it is an unhappy and all too often contrived event. Then LE wonders why the people resent them. It is time for the police to practice some serious introspection because they have lost their credibility. They hide behind signs, bridges, bushes, with their electronic toys, trying to nab the next speeder, even while knowing that neither speeding nor the level of enforcement has any effect on key safety measures. They are, in short, wasting our time and money.
To be sure, much of this isolation manifests itself in elevated divorce, alcoholism, and suicide rates among officers but this is not something that the public did to the officers but what the officers have done to themselves.
I am rather pleasantly surprised at the skepticism shown by so many on these boards. We just need to coordinate our efforts and concentrate our voices to speak truth to authority a little louder. I urge all of the readers to join NMA, sponsor of this site, because NMA helps us speak for ourselves. Besides, the newsletter is way cool!
Thank you profusely for epounding on my deepest thoughts. I wish I had you elequence
…….I second Baja Jones, live free or die. I’m also old enough not to care and also refuse to oblige this fascism. That is what it is. If it isn’t, whats the difference between this and the real thing.
My time is mine. It is mine to spend as I so choose. If you obligate my time and demand that I be somewhere at a certain time, then you damn well better be there when you demand I do.
How about this for an alternative. If the ticket giver looses in court the person who got the ticket is compensated for lost time and wages.
If the officer doesn’t show, a warrant for his arrest is issued and he is terminated.
Until then the FAIR AND IMPARTIAL on the ticket is a lie.
They ask you to swear to tell the truth. The truth is that if the RICO racketeering statues were applied to traffic courts they would be found guilty of being an on going criminal enterprise.
I am prepared to arbitrate any red light ticket I recieve. If I win, fine. If I loose I wii reliquse my license and serve jail time if necessary. I can use my passport as ID.. I am 65 yrs old and refuse to oblige this facist government we live in. God help me, “give me liberty or death”. I am old enough to no longer care! Live free or die!