Construction Zone Tickets: What They Don’t Want You To Know
February 11th, 2008 Posted in James Baxter, Traffic Tickets
By Jim Baxter, NMA President
Highway work zone accidents and fatalities have been a hot topic over the past decade. Like most hot topics dealing with highway safety issues the misinformation, distortions, and propaganda are dominant in the headlines.
For example, the political elite would have us believe that highway workers are the primary victims of callus, reckless, and impaired drivers who take their pleasure by careening amongst orange plastic barrels. You might find in a footnote that eight out of nine work zone fatalities are motorists and not workers.
Another even more remote footnote might mention that most of the highway workers that are injured or die in work zone accidents are the victims of direct work related accidents that do not involve passing cars and trucks.
However, not to be dissuaded by facts or reality, state legislators have pumped out numerous laws that increase traffic fines in work zones, assess more fines for harming highway workers, and promote enforcement campaigns aimed at applying these new penalties.
So what are the results of all this legislative flogging?
A recent University of Kansas Study that explored the causes of work zone accidents referenced a telling national statistic:
- In 1999 work zone fatalities totaled 872.
- By 2003 the number of work zone fatalities had increased 18 percent (1028 fatalities).
While it wouldn’t be fair to lay the blame for these deaths on the legislative disinformation campaigns and doubling and tripling of fines, it’s clear they haven’t improved the situation.
To the degree that this political hucksterism displaced and sidetracked programs and policies that could have reduced work zone accidents it IS partially responsible for the end result; more accidents, more injuries and more deaths.
Work zones can be managed to move traffic safely. Better signage, better lane management, better timing of active work projects, relevant speed regulation, and giving first priority to traffic movement during peak travel periods, such as holidays, are all constructive objectives.
These measures, and others, require the recognition that work zone safety is primarily about drivers, not highway workers, and in fact it is the highway project managers that should be held responsible for improving work zone safety.
Certainly, drivers need to exercise caution in construction zones, but they are not in control of the traffic environment, the project managers are. Ladling on more fines and penalties may work, as long as the recipients are the people responsible for managing construction and work zones.
Other Related Articles
- The Wrong Way To Improve Traffic Safety
- How To Reduce Holiday Traffic Fatalities
- No More Fines: A Traffic Safety Revolution
- The Effect Of A National Speed Limit On Traffic Safety & Fuel Prices
- Move Over, Slow Down, And Crash!
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this is also true of drunk driving laws. the fact is sober drivers kill almost two thirds of all people in fatal accidents in america. drunk drivers kill one third. the fact is, madd has created a 3 billion dollar industry for the justice system. the number of fatal accidents as a whole hasn’t gone down, nor has the number of drunk driving fatalities. Now, that is not to say that people should dirve drunk, that is just to say that our justice system has accually become an adversaryal monetary system. Because in a justice system, one would rather let a guilty man free than convict the innocent.
We all know by now that most trafic fines are , for makeing money, not safty. they take every opertunity to impound your car!!! guess why most of this hapens on the week end When they hook on to your car ,70.00 min. is charged right then , at least 20.00 per day is then added . the county then gets from .42to .50 percent of the total bill.
Alvin Roberson Said that
One problem drives have in the USA is that they don’t pay attention to our laws. If the speed limit sign says 45 MPH….that is what it means. It don’t mean to drive 50 mph.If it says 60 mph, that is what is means. I travel the interstate and other highways every day. What do most people drive? 10 to 20 mph OVER the speed limit. We are a nation of law breakers. Today many people talk about illegal immigrates etc. If you drive over the posted speed limit, then you are breaking the law…just like the illegals. You are bresking the law.
Ever fudge on your taxes?
IMO The whole idea is to lower the speed limit even further to generate even more revenue.
In IL often work zone speed limits go up with no lane closures at all or a shoulder making up for a closed lane. The net result is that the flow of traffic is a little slower than normal but still over the usual 55mph speed limit. Except now the speed limit is 45mph. Following the work zone limit is risking one’s own life by becoming a speed bump. Trouble is the speed camera doesn’t care.
Also I’ve noticed that the the lay outs for construction zones have become a lot more slip shod and difficult to follow than in the past. Some things I’ve seen were just outright idiocy. It seems like with RLCs they make conditions more dangerous and hope ‘enforcement’ will make it safe.
One problem with construction zones these days is the fact that they hire people who don’t have a clue how to direct traffic. I have had several times where the person directing traffic has put me in an unsafe position because they can’t coordinate with the other person directing traffic at the other end of the construction zone. Or they put up cones which really confuse the driver and make manuvering them a mystery.
What the heck is wrong with you people? Your own numbers speak against your movement! An 18% increase of fatal crashes and you want the DOT to do away with the increased fine amounts? Sounds like we need to make speeding a trip to jail. Like Hubert said, do the speed limit! The signs say “speed limit” not “speed minimum”. What’s the answer then? Just let everyone on the road figure out what speed they want to drive and just “Have Fun!”. Gesh!! Give me a break! If this website would offer a reasonable answer to solve the problem someone might listen to you. Instead you bitch, you’re what’s wrong with America today! I hope all of you get tickets!
Ima Safedriver writes:
{What the heck is wrong with you people? Your own numbers speak against your movement! An 18% increase of fatal crashes and you want the DOT to do away with the increased fine amounts? Sounds like we need to make speeding a trip to jail.}
I agree. Let’s set up speeding as a felony, perhaps a capital crime, and watch the public rise up in unison and smack the lawmakers and law enforcers right across their silly greedy faces. That is essentially what happened in VA with their exorbitant “fees”: the public protested and the authoritarians backed off. Yep, speeding as a jailable offense would last about 48 hours because the public would be hanging legislators not in effigy but from trees.
{What’s the answer then? Just let everyone on the road figure out what speed they want to drive . . .[?]}
In a word, yes. That is the way that engineers determine the scientific speed limit, a limit that is then ignored for political purposes.
{If this website would offer a reasonable answer to solve the problem someone might listen to you. Instead you bitch, you’re what’s wrong with America today! I hope all of you get tickets!}
That’s why, at least in part, nobody takes LEOs seriously, instead viewing them as armed thugs bent on collecting as much money as possible. I have been lobbying legislators for years in 4 different states. They rarely take drivers as a serious group because drivers don’t offer the campaign contributions that the insurance industry and police associations do. And in Texas and California, I have been denied even access because I had made no contributions to their campaigns.
We know the answer. The problem is overcoming the political inertia fear and greed, driven by special interests, to actually use the scientific methodology.
A title like Ima Safedriver makes me immediately suspicious that your trolling and not really interested in the issues. Find somewhere else to troll. While your at it don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back for being such safe driver. With the arrogance you portray, why do I get the feeling you could you be one of those left lane hogs?
And Hubert, take your buddy Ima Safedriver and troll somewhere else. Your obviously clueless. You make meaningless blanket statements.
You are seriously suggesting that everyone driving on the roadways should be able to pick the speed limit they want to drive? That would be the same as doing away with lines in a fast food restaurant or a theme park. Everyone just mill in and poof! Bedlam erupts. You think we should do away with speed limits? You can’t be serious. Right? Tell me you’re not serious, please. Joe, you mention left lane hogs. As an officer for 17 years when you stop someone for impeding traffic you’d swear you just raped their mother. They curse you out and scream, “Don’t you have anything else better to do?”
Every single red light light runner says, “that light was yellow…”. No one, nowadays , is willing to accept their responsibility for their actions. I jest a lot to poke fun at you guys but your ideas are flawed. Obviously, no government in the modern world operates this way. I went to Puerto Rico not long ago and traffic rules don’t exist and thus Bedlam. People constantly run red lights and traffic crashes are taking place every mile. What is the answer guys? Seriously. Tell me the answer!!
Ima Safedriver, I don’t think anybody here or on the other bloggs are suggesting the absence of traffic control, I’m sure not. Having said that I’m not going to reiterate the several posts I’ve made elsewhere on this issue. I suggest you check out some of the posts on speed limits ect. There are plenty of posts there to explain some of our positions on the speed limit issue.
I have searched! But all I can find are nut jobs telling everyone that the cops are all criminals out to steal your money. And how speed limits are unsafe and cause more crashes than drunk drivers, who you also seem to support. Now, you say that you actually have a position. ??
Ima writes:
{You are seriously suggesting that everyone driving on the roadways should be able to pick the speed limit they want to drive?}
In a word, yes. It really is a simple concept and being as close to the law as you claim, you should be able to comprehend this. Engineers set limits according to the 85th percentile rule, setting the limit at the minimization point of the crash incidence curve. Politicians then interfere and lower the limit, thus forcing drivers backwards and up the crash incidence curve in order to be legal. On Interstate-grade and rural highways, the minimization point occurs closer to the 95th percentile, that is, even faster.
Speed limits have never been a part of URROW, do not offer valuable information and provide no benefit to drivers. There is no correlation between speed limits and key safety measures. In harsher terms, speed limits do not affect traffic safety in any way.
{You think we should do away with speed limits? You can’t be serious. Right? Tell me you’re not serious, please.}
Not only am I serious, I’m right and I’ve got all the science on my side. If you have any credible evidence to the contrary, now is the time to offer it.
{I jest a lot to poke fun at you guys but your ideas are flawed.}
Then give us the proof that they are flawed.
{ People constantly run red lights and traffic crashes are taking place every mile.}
Please don’t insult us that way. Traffic crashes, especially fatal crashes are very rare; they do not take place every mile.
{What is the answer guys? Seriously. Tell me the answer!!}
We’ve already told you the answer; you just don’t like it.
“It ain’t what you don’t know that hurts you; it’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.” — Mark Twain. It’s time for you to take a fresh look at your narrow little world.
Also, tell me one more thing and I’m out of here. What do YOU define “speed too fast for conditions”? When and who should determine when that “other person” is going too fast? If a professional racer drives 100 mph through an area (I won’t say “school zone” because I’m sure you have some moral objection to those too) where children are attempting to cross the roadway to get to a school, should that be consider “unlawful” or “unsafe”?
{I have searched! But all I can find are nut jobs telling everyone that the cops are all criminals out to steal your money. And how speed limits are unsafe and cause more crashes than drunk drivers, who you also seem to support.}
You need to reread it.
LE has created a hell of a mess for itself. Beginning in about 1974, far too much LE has concentrated on the low-hanging fruit of speeders, along with secondary and tertiary charges, to be explained by any improvements in traffic safety related to those efforts. You isolated yourselves from the public, now speak your own language, and suffer from virulent institutionalism completely unrelated to your legitimate public safety needs.
I has become apparent much too quickly that you have no interest in a legitimate discussion but are just trolling. If you really want to learn something, you need to check your attitude that because you’re a cop you know more than everybody else on these fora. What you know is much too narrow and much too steeped in LE institutionalism to withstand academic scrutiny.
{Also, tell me one more thing and I’m out of here. What do YOU define “speed too fast for conditions”?}
A speed too fast for conditions is defined as a speed that exceeds the capabilities of car and driver. 25 mph in heavy fog may be too fast for conditions even though the posted limit is 80 mph. Speed too fast for conditions may be defined by a resulting crash, loss of cohesion, or where closing distances exceed braking distances. Just today, I was running 92 mph between Temecula and San Diego and I was being passed. So 92 mph was not too fast for the conditions. The true danger on that highway (the 15) is going too slow for conditions, e.g., the guy in the #2 lane (of 4, sometimes 6) running 70 mph.
{ When and who should determine when that “other person” is going too fast?}
You don’t get it. That judgment is left up to each individual driver, not the “other person.”
{ If a professional racer drives 100 mph through an area (I won’t say “school zone” because I’m sure you have some moral objection to those too) where children are attempting to cross the roadway to get to a school, should that be consider “unlawful” or “unsafe”?}
Probably. OTOH, how many school zones are there on Interstate highways?
Do you work the general public at all? BTW, you still haven’t answered the question of at what point do you consider speed to be unsafe? You said you support “traffic control”. What’s that mean? Everyone decides what is safe for themselves? So if I can drive my monster truck at 90 mph down your street in front of you house you mean to tell me you have NO OBJECTION to that behavior at all? Tell me, because all you said a couple of times is that you have, should there be a “limit” to driving behavior based on what ever magical number you want to draw from (85th, 93rd, 22nd). BTW , we have a four lane road that covers a business area, in 2007 there were 23 crashes, 3 of which were fatal. We did critical speed measurement’s to determine the fastest you could travel this curve and it was 50 mph. Two drivers killed themselves but one crossed the lane an killed a mother of two infants! In your logic we, as traffic officers, should NOT enforce the posted limit of 35! We should do what in order to keep others from dying here? Hire a full time person to stand there flagging down every single driver to tell them it’s a dangerous curve and “have fun” drive at what ever f’ing speed you want? That is truly what I DO NOT understand about your cause!
“A speed too fast for conditions is defined as a speed that exceeds the capabilities of car and driver.” GREAT, NOW I UNDERSTAND! So I’ll be over to your house with my top fuel funny car to break 300 mph on your street just about the time you back out of your driveway on your drive to work or the market?
“You don’t get it. That judgment is left up to each individual driver, not the “other person.” There is your answer!!!! That guy in front of you doing 65 thinks that is what is safe for him! You, OTOH, seem to think that EVERYONE must be just like you!
I’m a spectacular shooter! SWAT team, firearms instructor, pistol match team, etc. Let me crack off a round 3/10th’s of an inch from your head with my .308. I can do it! I’m safe, what’s the matter? You wouldn’t trust MY abilities with my rifle?
That’s what your missing. Not everyone thinks the same way as you! Grandpa might think 35 is fast enough for his car and his abilities. Michael Andretti knows that he can do 185 mph while bumping the car in front of him. Do you want to be in that car?
{Do you work the general public at all?}
I’m not sure what you mean by that nor why it matters. I’m a financial executive and do some side consulting in the movie industry. I used to work at the emergency room of a major trauma hospital (for Joe, that’s Hillcrest).
{ BTW, you still haven’t answered the question of at what point do you consider speed to be unsafe?}
Reread my post, supra. Note that there is no single magic speed but that, just like the phrase says, “for conditions.” 25 may be too fast in the fog and too slow on the freeway. If your car is breaking loose, you probably need to back of a little.
{You said you support “traffic control”. What’s that mean? Everyone decides what is safe for themselves?}
I’m not sure what you reference here. It is a fundamental assumption of traffic engineers that, yes, drivers do decide what speed is safe for them. I’ve said that about 4 times now.
{ So if I can drive my monster truck at 90 mph down your street in front of you house you mean to tell me you have NO OBJECTION to that behavior at all?}
90 mph would be impossible on virtually all residential streets. Try a more reasonable scenario.
{ Tell me, because all you said a couple of times is that you have, should there be a “limit” to driving behavior based on what ever magical number you want to draw from (85th, 93rd, 22nd).}
No, that isn’t what I said. Before you go spouting off nonsense, exposing an unparalleled level of ignorance, ask one of your traffic engineers what the 85th percentile speed is and why it’s important. Hint: it is not an arbitrary number.
{ BTW , we have a four lane road that covers a business area, in 2007 there were 23 crashes, 3 of which were fatal. We did critical speed measurement’s to determine the fastest you could travel this curve and it was 50 mph. Two drivers killed themselves but one crossed the lane an killed a mother of two infants! In your logic we, as traffic officers, should NOT enforce the posted limit of 35! We should do what in order to keep others from dying here? Hire a full time person to stand there flagging down every single driver to tell them it’s a dangerous curve and “have fun” drive at what ever f’ing speed you want? That is truly what I DO NOT understand about your cause!}
You don’t understand because you don’t want to. If you really have such a dangerous road, the solution lies not in law but in re-engineering it. There was a very dangerous road on old hwy 33 near Locust Grove, OK and OKDOT tried lowering the limit with heavy enforcement from OHP. Didn’t work. What it took was moving the roadway. Problem solved.
Where is that road and what jurisdiction does it fall under. I want to contact them to learn more about it and the alleged fatalities
Your scenarios are absurd, but I expect that you know that.
As drivers, we should be able to expect all other drivers to be able to comply with the reasonable part of the law, the URROW parts. That includes driving in the rightmost lane if you are traveling much slower than the normal flow of traffic. This is a perfectly reasonable request, is the law in virtually every state, yet is enforced only rarely. Impeding affects many other drivers. Speeding affects nobody.
So, since you’re suggesting that there should be NO SPEED LIMITS anywhere, you are suggesting that every state DOT should rebuild every single road to accommodate the fastest driver in the fast car “theorem”. What happens when YOU, Mr. Young, are not THAT driver and a faster driver approaches you from the rear AND at a rate much faster than you? Are you now the problem?
“Speeding affects nobody”
Let me guess, neither does drunk driving?
{So, since you’re suggesting that there should be NO SPEED LIMITS anywhere, you are suggesting that every state DOT should rebuild every single road to accommodate the fastest driver in the fast car “theorem”.}
No, that’s not what I’m suggest at all and you should know it. Highways are not modified (beyond maintenance and technological improvements as they deteriorate). Drivers are already driving their optimal speeds or very close to them and we are enjoying the best safety rates in the history of America. What we are doing is working fine except for the legal interference, which messes it all up. Removing speed limits on rural highways will not change normal driving speeds significantly. We know this from prior experience as well as multiple academic and scientific studies. Removing rural limits simply makes legal what is already happening. It is up to each driver to drive within the limits of his and his vehicle’s capabilities for the given roadway. It is also disingenuous to conflate urban and rural speed limits and driver behavior.
{ What happens when YOU, Mr. Young, are not THAT driver and a faster driver approaches you from the rear AND at a rate much faster than you? Are you now the problem?}
No, because I move over for faster traffic. I don’t impede other drivers and I expect the same from them.
{“Speeding affects nobody”
Let me guess, neither does drunk driving?}
You don’t understand metaphors, do you?
If I’m running 92 mph in the #2 lane and I pass a guy in the #3 lane who is running 70 mph, he need take NO action, no change of speed or direction, and no evasive action. Whether I’m there or not, his actions remain the same. Why don’t you explain exactly how “speeding” DOES affect other drivers.
Ok, I can agree with the highway ONLY portion of your mission. However, I still think there should be limits in each lane. Example, the “fast lane” should be something like 80-90, the middle lane at 60-70, and the far right something like 50-60. That I can agree with! I think most law enforcement would agree with that too. Too bad those decisions can not be made by us. That is up to our law makers to determine and for us to enforce. Not the other way around. Don’t get mad at us because people complain about speeders. My “issue” has been, and will be, red light runners. But the argument from every driver for ANY traffic violation always seems to be the exact same thing! “Don’t you have anything else better to do?” There needs to be rules in societies, otherwise chaos will take place. New Orleans post Katrina strike a bell? No rules, then Darwin’s theory!
Speaking of California, a fellow traffic LEO told me that there was a bad crash at Quiet Meadow Rd. and Santiago Rd. The driver pulling out from Quiet Meadow thought the vehicle going eastbound on Santiago Rd. was going much too fast for him react safely. I guess there is a school zone nearby too. The odd thing was that traffic counts showed a reduction in traffic volume by 115 cars from 2005 to 2007.
I know the intersection, although I’m not over there too much. I don’t understand the rest of the post. When was this?
A bad crash can happen anywhere! Even in your neighborhood! That’s where you live, right? Even if traffic flow is light, the human factor is the key to safe Traffic Engineering. You have to factor for the lowest common denominator, not the best driver.
{A bad crash can happen anywhere! Even in your neighborhood! That’s where you live, right?}
No, when I’m in Temecula, I’m much farther East.
Yes, crashes can occur anywhere. However, where we differ is in the focus of LE’s efforts. The Texas DPS wrote over a million speeding cites in 2002(?), more than twice as many as all other combined. That’s about $150 million for one agency in one state. LE has sold out to speed control, a $100 billion a year industry, even though such efforts have no effect on key safety measures. We need to concentrate on those factors that affect driving efficacy: remove the impeders, focus on the truly dangerous and leave the people who are running 15 mph over the limit alone.
{Even if traffic flow is light, the human factor is the key to safe Traffic Engineering. You have to factor for the lowest common denominator, not the best driver.}
Traffic engineering factors for the reasonable driver, not the best and not the worst. The various DMVs are supposed to weed out the worst drivers and we can ignore the best. The human factor that operates in America right now has produced the best safety record in our history. It is only the law that is 30 years behind the curve and we all know exactly why that is. If you want the factor that explains the most phenomena in traffic control, follow the money. It tells us much more than any other single factor.
I have been without a traffic ticket for my entire life, up until last year. In August, I received two tickets in one week. I did not drive any differently that I usually do, but I found out that what you drive definately changes your odds. During that week where I received two tickets, I was driving a friend’s Mazda Miata. It’s a little bright blue sports car. Somehow, the police decided that I was speeding. I had no idea that I was going over the limit, but each ticket was for 1-4 mph over the limit.
I considered it to be a “luxury penalty”, since they’d never have ticketed me in my Toyota Corolla. But in a sports car with the top down, they figured, “Hey, he as ample extra cash, just look at what he’s driving”.
Let it never be said that what you drive is not a determining factor in who gets pulled over. As for me, I returned the car to my friend, and am driving my Corolla again. The tickets were out of state in a state with no reciprocity agreement with my state, so I guess it’s only about the money.
Oh yeah, what made it even better is that the cop who pulled me over the second time had a burned out headlight. Who’s gonna give him a defective equipment ticket. If you live in a glass house….
Ima Safedriver , so since you seem to be an expert on the subject, could you please tell us how many accidents annually are caused by pure speeding in your jurisdiction, no other factors involved. Then tell how many citations a year are written and how many are written for speeding?
{Even if traffic flow is light, the human factor is the key to safe Traffic Engineering. You have to factor for the lowest common denominator, not the best driver.}
So Ima Safedriver, what is it your saying…if there’s 1,000 vehicles on the road at a given time and one 80 year old grandma out there on the road with them, they all must dive her speed? No wonder the speed limits are so low. You’ve enlightened us.
The type of car is complete BS! I have never know any officer to look for the “red sports car” theory, top down or up for that matter. Atlanta, is it possible that YOU made the mistake by driving a car that you were not accustomed to and that’s where it went wrong, not the cops doing something different? There is a well respected eye surgeon in my area and he has a new bright yellow Lamborghini. I have never seen him over the limit (reasonable stuff, just like anyone). Gosh! Without having the number in front of me, I would guess that in 2007 we had something 3,000 crashes. Most of those were heavy traffic rear end situations, which we could argue to the end of time whether those were caused by “following too close” or due to the drivers “speed” causing a “distance traveled issue”. I know of about 25 crashes that were drivers trying to go around a turn too fast. Is that the roads’ fault or the drivers? I can not understand how anyone can think that having no speed limits could be a safe thing. My daughter likes to ride her bicycle on our street. I could not even imagine if we were to take away speed limits. She’d get killed in a matter on minutes. Some yahoo would decide that his 1988 Trans Am, and pumped up by yesterdays Nascar race, would do 85 mph. My 8 year old riding her bike could not distinguish the fact that the car is covering 125 feet. By the time she’d see him and try to move she’d be run down. No you can no more factor for grandma than you should factor for Mr. Leadfoot. Thus the middle number is found. Several times a year, in my area we evaluate speed limits. We look at the signs, roadway conditions, traffic volume. In other words a new school is being built in the area. Should we reduce the speed limit during the hours that children are present or should we leave it at 45? Or should we let the children decide when it’s safe to dart across the roadway and just pray that Mr. 19 year old Leadfoot with girlfriend in tote didn’t watch once of those run from the cops thrill movies last night.
Why is it that when rational motorists bring up the idea of raising limits on highway, that all the anti-destination types immediately bring up a school zone? There are no schools and residences on Interstate-grade highways. Or they bring up residential streets. The argument is not about residential streets or even feeders or collectors but about highways and some arterials in urban areas.
Ima Safedriver writes:
{I know of about 25 crashes that were drivers trying to go around a turn too fast. Is that the roads’ fault or the drivers?}
Where is this? That’s an intriguing situation, one that I want to examine because it so closely parallels a situation on old hwy 33 (now US 412) near Locust Grove, OK many years ago. Enforcement action was ineffective but relocating a small section of the highway resolved the problem forever.
Ima Safedriver, I noticed you didn’t elude to the number of traffic citations written and what they were written for. I think you know where I’m headed on this one. Most jurisdictions I’m familiar with, that’s almost a state secret. I wonder why? In fact I would like to see a state law requiring all courts that handle traffic citations be required to report this data to the state to be published on the Internet. Then we could find out who the speed trap champions of the state are and perhaps do something about it.
A few years ago I noted the local cops running a fairly consistent speed trap up the road from me. So I ordered all the accident records from the DPS (Department of Public Safety). The county engineer gets them to me. The four miles that I requested, out of nearly 60 accidents, nearly all were intersection accidents unrelated to speeding. If my memory serves me right only about 3 of the 60 were for actual speeding and they were single car, non-injury accidents. Surprise, the speed traps couldn’t have been for accident prevention in this case.
You noted that many of your accidents were rear end. It may be debatable but I suspect that since they were in heavy traffic they couldn’t have been speeding. Speed may have been a factor, but that’s not speeding. Parents have been known to back out their driveway at very low mph and drive over a family member, sometimes with fatal results. Aside from that, I surmise that most of these rear enders you eluded to are caused by distractions in the cabin ( changing a CD, cell phone, or GPS). A study conducted a couple years ago documented that around 70 percent of crashes are caused by cabin distractions…..not speeding. The 25 crashes you mentioned for turning to fast I would rate as driving to fast for conditions or reckless driving…again little to do with speeding.
I don’t know where residential speed limits and school zones got into the pix. I don’t think anybody is advocating raising or not enforcing them. My big beef is the speed traps on multi-lane highways/expressways some rural highways and perhaps a few municipal streets. Needless speed traps for the express purpose of revenue generation that has no effect on accidents. Meanwhile traffic laws such as following to closely (common around here), left lane blocking providing poor traffic flow and multiple lanes changes by multiple vehicles (common around here) and cell phone users glued to their phone conducting what seems like contract negotiations or something while totally unaware of their driving environment (common around here). All these are dangerous driving actions and NOT enforced around this part of the country and have nothing to do with traveling above the speed limit. Also, we need a state-or-the-art drivers training program for all our future drivers thus creating better drivers right out of the box…so to speak. Law Enforcement to my knowledge provides little support for this. In general, if your not creating a dangerous situation on the road, you should be left alone…within some limits of course. These are just SOME of the issues I have. I am over 60, safety is my constant concern also as I work in maintenance for a major airline. The ideal situation would be responsible drivers and police working together to eliminate truly bad drivers but your not gonna do it setting out on main roads writing speeding tickets all the time.
You may be a good officer with good intentions but you may have a totally different driving scenario then I see. The issues that I bring to light may not be relevant to your situation. I’m telling you how it works around my part of the country (Oklahoma). You can’t blame drivers like me who deplore the situation when it goes on for decades and seems to be getting worse.
All the contributors to this blog should consider running for some political office. You have debated this subject for the last half an hour and have said nothing !!
The bottom line, if you don’t like the laws and rules of these United States, PLEASE Leave……
James you bring up a good point since we’re both familiar with the same part of the country. The little towns like Stringtown, Caney, Hulbert OK just to name a few. They’re almost household names in this state. The main roads that they so successfully hijack the through traffic needs to be diverted around these little towns and then make it unlawful for those towns to annex them. But if you want to hear some squealing you’d hear it when the word got out. These little towns know they would “dry up on the vine” economically if that happened but it couldn’t happen to a better bunch. Here’s a classic example: http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=071011_1__WAGON43382
Just as happened when the Interstate highways bypassed many small towns when it was built. But in Oklahoma they found a way to solve that. They just went out and annexed the highway. Problem solved. Per the local paper, Roland Oklahoma made over a million dollars in traffic ticket revenue, I think it was in ‘03. I forget what the population is but it’s tiny. You can’t even see the town from the highway. Yep, I think we got a problem all right regardless of what the law enforcement types say.
Ah, anouther one of those law and order types. Maybe you should join us because you’ve said nothing either. If you can’t contribute something constructive, go troll somewhere else. And no, if you object to a law, you attempt to change it. That’s the American way. Your way or the highway does nothing to solve the problem.
Joe,
In Detroit a week from Monday I-75 is being shut down for two years, give or take a few months.
Do I like it? NO
Can I do anything to change it ? NO
If I don’t like it enough, I can move.
I guess I just don’t get it. Around here we have one of our major north-south expressways severely limited for 6 mos. for maintenance. I understand that; roads need maintenance. I don’ t like the restrictions either but they are temporary and I can tolerate that. What’s the connection other then not liking something? We’re not taking about senseless enforcement practices and the laws that allow such. Why would I or any of the rest of us want to move? That doesn’t solve anything. You try to fix it, not run from it. What’s your point?
I can agree with the Interstate speed limit to a degree, a very limited degree. But what I’m constantly hearing from people here is that they do not want speed limits at all! How can you think having no speed limit whatsoever could possibly be safe? A dead horse, I know!!!! Buuuut, explain this to me please, you said, “Speed may have been a factor, but that’s not speeding.” WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN? You seem to be indicating that speed in no way can ever be contributed to the cause, regardless of roadway type. It’s always something else, but it definitely isn’t speed! I guess we’ve stumbled into the chicken and egg theory! The way I view unlawful speed is as a “distance traveled issue”. People can not understand how far they’ve gone in a matter of seconds, thus the reason for limits. Recently, we reviewed a fatal crash case where a driver pulled out in front of a motorcyclist. The rider died in the crash. The initial response from most on scene was the pickup was at fault. Then “speed” came into play. We did time traveled formulas complete with a reconstruction. The p/u truck driver COULD NOT have seen the motorcyclist when he first initiated movement due to the excessive speed of the bike. How could he react to something he could not have seen? Speed was the cause! Nothing else! Speed! Not reaction time, not a cell phone, not makeup, not a radio, nada….nothing but speed. Yes, more drivers involved in basic crashes most likely were distracted by one of those things but speed CAN be THE factor. According to most people here, NO WAY CAN THAT BE! Obviously, there is no way that I could “speak” for every ticket issued. I would have to say that most likely speed COULD be the most common ticket in the US (I’d put my money on stop sign or red light violations though). I can tell you that for me, that is NOT the case. I can speak for my actions and not the entire US law enforcement body. I write several hundred red light tickets a year, about 90 a month. Followed by “Careless Driving” (reading the newspaper, putting on makeup, stupid driving, etc.), Failing to use correct lane, stop signs, then maybe 20 or more speeding tickets. Which, resulted from calls from citizens complaining of people “speeding” through their neighborhood. Subdivisions call saying that they have a problem. We go out and set up a evil device (I’m sure most of you on this website will hate this thing with a new found passion). It’s called a Stealth Stat. It secretly records speeds along with time of day the speeds occurred so that we know when to go there to conduct speed enforcement. Days before we arrive we put out of variable message board with “YOUR SPEED IS –” SLOW DOWN! DRIVE CAREFUL! Then, a week later, we go out and write tickets. If they haven’t got the idea by this point, DUH! Sign here! I guess we will have to agree to disagree! I can not see the safe reason for no speed limits an I would suspect that most voting people can’t either, otherwise, pointless website…LOL! If by chance we meet on the side of the roadway. I will be polite and do my job. I would hope that I would be treated with respect because that’s the way I treat my clients, Respectfully. Thanks for the entertainment! LOL!
PS I’ll leave with this parting word for everyone on this site. You have every right to disagree with the rules, BUT, for our safety, because we are murdered every day, please leave your seatbelt fastened (if required)and your hands on the wheel. Don’t unbuckle and lean over to the glove box! I hate that!! Drive safe!!!
Kind of funny! I just found this!!!
The Associated Press
ACCOKEEK, Md. — A car plowed into a group of street-racing fans obscured by a cloud of tire smoke on a highway Saturday, killing eight people and scattering bodies in the early morning darkness.
At least five others were injured in the gruesome wreck along a flat, isolated stretch of highway about 20 miles south of Washington known for illegal races.
About 50 people were gathered before dawn along Route 210 as two cars spun their wheels, kicked up smoke and sped off, said Prince George’s County police Cpl. Clinton Copeland.
Fans had spilled onto the smoky, dark road to watch the cars drive away when a white Ford Crown Victoria unexpectedly came up from behind and smashed into them.
“There were just bodies everywhere; it was horrible,” said Crystal Gaines, 27, of Indian Head, whose father was killed.
Police interviewed the Crown Victoria driver, but no charges were pending, Copeland said. Authorities were looking for the drivers of the two cars involved in the race.
The combination of the smoke and the dark morning likely meant the unsuspecting driver could not see the crowd, police said. A tractor-trailer that came by shortly afterward may also have struck someone on the roadside as it tried to avoid the crash scene, according to investigators.
The Crown Victoria, which had a crumpled hood and a partially collapsed roof, ended up down an embankment with one of the victims lodged inside.
Bodies covered by white sheets lay in the road and on the shoulder across a 50-foot stretch of the road later Saturday morning before they were removed by the medical examiner.
Shoes were strewn about in the grass, and a pair of dark skid marks scarred the highway.
“It’s probably one of the worst scenes I’ve seen,” Copeland said. “This is a situation that could have been avoided, and it’s a very tragic situation.”
About 50 people were watching the race, Gaines said, and she saw the Crown Victoria approach without its lights on. She grabbed her daughter, pulling the girl to safety. But her father, William Gaines Sr., 61, had a broken leg, and was not able to get away in time. Afterward, she found his body on the road.
“He wasn’t breathing; he wasn’t moving,” Gaines said. “His body was in pieces.”
Her brother, William Gaines Jr., was also there. The car came through so fast that “it just ripped people apart,” he said.
“I didn’t even see the car. All I heard was stuff breaking,” he said.
Police could not confirm whether the car that struck the crowd had its lights on.
The victims’ ages ranged from their 20s to 60s, police said. Seven people were pronounced dead at the scene, and an eighth died later at a hospital. Police said a body found in the car was one of the spectators and not a passenger, as they had previously assumed.
Route 210 is a thoroughfare with two lanes in each direction and traffic lights about every 150 to 200 yards. The road is flanked by some businesses but has little traffic in the early morning, Copeland said. The speed limit is 55 miles per hour.
John Courtney said his brother, Mark, 33, of St. Mary’s County, also was among the dead. He identified his brother from a digital image police had taken.
“He liked going to the race track, watching races,” Courtney said. “It’s going to take a toll on my family for a long time.”
Marion Neal feared her 42-year-old brother was among the dead and was awaiting images from the police.
“It’s a tragedy,” she said. “I don’t like racing, but that was his hobby.”
Police said that street races are not uncommon on the stretch of road, but that most occur in the summer and involve motorcycles. But relatives said some of the victims often went to see races held late at night on isolated stretches of road.
“It’s a problem,” said Denee Hines, whose mother owns a hair salon only a few hundred feet from the site of the accident. “Everyone knows about it, but I’ve never heard of it getting this bad.”
{How can you think having no speed limit whatsoever could possibly be safe?}
In the proper places, R&P works well. It worked for Montana, it works on the autobahns, and it worked for Nevada. You keep making the error of assuming that traffic safety is a function of the speed limit. That is false. There is no correlation between speed limits or changes in speed limits and changes in key measures of traffic safety performance.
{“Speed may have been a factor, but that’s not speeding.” WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?}
It is important to understand the difference between “speeding” and “excessive speed” or “speed too fast for conditions.” “Speeding” is merely exceeding the posted limit and has no relationship at all with “too fast for conditions.” They operate independently and depend on different independent variables. Speed depends on the posted limit, an arbitrary number determined by fiat, and too fast for conditions depends on the calculus of complex factors such as the coefficient of traction, sightlines, weather, the driver’s skills, the car’s suspension and tires, etc.
What the law focuses on is the very easy to catch speeding because (1) it ubiquitous, (2) it is long-lived (compared to, say, running a red light), (3) it produces $100 billion a year for law enforcement and their parent jurisdictions, (4) their tools are geared toward making speed measurement instantaneous. The only problem with this is that speeding is not a factor in causing crashes. LE ignores too fast for conditions, the impeder, the distracted, the suicidal, and the incompetent.
{The way I view unlawful speed is as a “distance traveled issue”. People can not understand how far they’ve gone in a matter of seconds, thus the reason for limits.}
That’s just not true. First, speed is defined as distance per unit of time, e.g., mph, fps, or 186,000 miles per second. Second, people can understand how far they’ve gone in a few seconds and do so intuitively.
Your more egregious error is assuming that is why we have limits. Actually, speed limits are a vestigial aspect of an attempt to drive the newly invented automobile out of existence because it scared farmers’ livestock. That law failed but the limits remain, now excused by several different rationalizations. Speed limits do not provide any useful information to motorists beyond what they can (or should be able to) determine for themselves.
{ Recently, we reviewed a fatal crash case where a driver pulled out in front of a motorcyclist.}
Once again, I’d like to see the reports for that crash. When and where was it?
As to the kids killed in the racing crash, all the anti-destination league types will condemn the speeds of the racers, confusing or deliberately conflating speed with racing. Note, however, that the speed limit on that section of roadway could have been 12 mph and it would have made no difference.
Yea, I read that article in today’s paper and on the Internet.
Well, unless I’m missing something here …to me SPEEDING is moving at a velocity ABOVE the posted speed limit (often an arbitrary number around here). Speed is just that ….the velocity of a vehicle. Once that speed moves beyond the post speed limit then it becomes SPEEDING. If a vehicle is moving at all it is moving at some speed. Speed will always be a component of transportation. Without it, there’s no transportation. Therefore I believe it’s pretty logical to assume that speed will always be a factor in accidents. Moving above the posted speed limit (SPEEDING) is a prime factor in only a small percentage of accidents …at least from what I have learned so far. I can’t be certain but over a period of time small morsels of information on traffic control statistics have came out in the local paper. If I have my figures wrong and it’s only because they don’t want the public to know, so I believe that about 90 % of all traffic citations in my driving area are for speeding (moving above the posted speed limit, probably less then 10 mph). Conversely, about 90 percent of all accidents are NOT caused by SPEEDING. How anybody can believe that’s responsible policing or enforcement is beyond me. Now, I’m talking about primarily main arterials, expressways, interstates, and large state highways. We have’em all here. You still seem to be hung up on school zones and residential speeds and local streets. I’m not going to get into that argument. That may be some drivers interest but it’s not mine. And as long as the yellow is set to a minimum of 5 seconds I don’t have much problem with traffic lights either but keep the cameras away. But the big main roads, for a whole assortment of reasons, ‘ya damn right I have a problem with speed enforcement in it’s current form. As I have said before, your situation may be totally different particularly if your enforcement area is in one of the coastal cites where the traffic density may be a lot higher.
And you mentioned distance traveled. That’s one of my points. Enforcement is almost non-existent around here. Allowing one car length…or more for every ten mph used to be considered acceptable. Your tyeing braking distance to speed. That’s the way it should be. Also, lane discipline on large multi lane roads are almost non-existent. I have been looking at this situation for thirty years and fundamentally I just can’t figure out what the hell the cops are doing in this state besides being hung up on speeding and avoiding everything else.
Around here, traffic citations provides a economic motive for writing even more citations. This economic motive distorts the setting of speed limits as well as the enforcement of speed limits. You can slice it or dice it anyway you want but that’s totally WRONG. Oklahoma also does NOT have a quota law.
Oh, and you might want to read “Virginia Traffic Fatalities Hit 17-Year High – One thousand motorists died on Virginia roads despite crack downs on motorists and massive speeding ticket fines. http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/21/2148.asp
James, I think we’re waisting our time on this guy. He’s anouther one of those “my way or the highway” types. When you have to define speeding for someone, I have to wonder.
Yes, we are probably wasting our time. I don’t really expect to convert anybody whose job depends on maintaining the status quo or on protecting the institution that LE has become. All I can hope to accomplish is to not let bogus assertions go uncontested.
I found his references to the mis-engineered roadways interesting but doubt if I ever get an adequate response. I’m always looking for the odd case, the anomaly, the precedent –setting court decision and he may indeed have something interesting.
I enjoy speaking with Joe. As for Joe (2) and James Young….What those two keep saying is the same as, “…It’s not the fall that kills you, it’s the sudden stop at the end!” or “the bullet has nothing to do with killing somebody it’s the gun powder that is responsible.”
Fine Mr. Young! I guess we could argue semantics to the end of time. {The way I view unlawful speed is as a “distance traveled issue”. People can not understand how far they’ve gone in a matter of seconds, thus the reason for limits.}
“That’s just not true. First, speed is defined as distance per unit of time, e.g., mph, fps, or 186,000 miles per second. Second, people can understand how far they’ve gone in a few seconds and do so intuitively. ” You agreed with me except for the “understanding” issue.
It might be one thing for people to do 80 or 90 on some desolate highway in South Dakota but around the hustle and bustle or Orlando, NO WAY! They’d pop over an overpass and traffic would be at a dead stop! Screeeech!! Crash! Now, would you agree that if they had been traveling at a slower speed they would have had a greater distance to perceive the stopped cars and slow down to a safe and controlled stop? Or should they be allowed to pop over that crest doing 110? I know what you going to say already! YES, they should. It’s not speeding issue, it keeping your car under control and that’s a Speed too fast for conditions” issue. As far as I concerned they can be the same thing! Oh, I’m sure you’re going to want every crash report from SR400 detailing every crash! Maybe you can get the USDOT to fund us in making all of our highways completely flat around here so that people can see farther. It must be an engineering issue you’d say! UGH! MORON!
As far as sending you these reports Mr. Young, what are you the arbiter of all traffic crash investigations? Hey Sarge! Did you send those reports off to Mr. Young for approval yet? He needs to second guess everything we do! Crashes like what I’ve described happen in every state. They are not some rare anomaly that occur once in a blue moon! People misjudge the speed,(Sorry!! Speed is defined as distance per unit of time, e.g., mph, fps, or 186,000 miles per second of a vehicle frequently!) If you want to obtain a real view of traffic crash investigations why don’t you contact IPTM.org and enroll in a crash investigation school. This might educate you a little more when it come to factors in traffic crashes!
Oh, when you’re done solving this major issue see if you can take some time to solve all the other socialite violence issues! Violent crime is at a record high! Oh, wait!! That must be the way LE records the information! Sorry, well fix that!!! Damn cops!
Ima Safedriver writes:
{Fine Mr. Young! I guess we could argue semantics to the end of time. . . .You agreed with me except for the “understanding” issue.}
Not quite. You omitted the critical time element of the ratio. Also, the very idea that drivers cannot understand the distances that they travel and do so intuitively is completely bogus. Were this truly the case, vehicles would be bouncing off each other constantly. More important than both of those errors is the assumption that a speed limit somehow provides information that overcomes their innate mental deficiency. Such a construction is silly on its face. Semantics are important. For example, scholars have been arguing over the placement of a single comma in our own Constitution for decades.
{It might be one thing for people to do 80 or 90 on some desolate highway in South Dakota but around the hustle and bustle or Orlando, NO WAY! }
You keep trying to bring up exceptions in order to deny any recognition that the rules need to be changed. “Apologists” is what we usually label these folks. Drivers must travel at appropriate speeds given the conditions. The speed limit is not a valid indicator of what appropriate is. While the limit along I-15 between Temecula and San Diego is 70 mph, the normal flow of traffic is much closer to 90 mph and 90 mph is a perfectly reasonable speed. Yet, the law says we’re being unreasonable. What needs to change is not the behavior of the drivers but the law itself.
Drivers crossing Wyoming on I-80 routinely hit triple digits. However, when they cross over Parley’s Summit and down toward Salt Lake City, because the conditions are different, they only run 70-75 mph and they do this automatically without being guided by a speed limit sign.
With sightlines measured in miles, speeds on western Interstate highways could be unlimited and should be unlimited. Would this cause drivers to all driver faster? In a word, no. The old myth that everybody drivers 10 mph over the limit is just that, a myth, propagated by the IIHS, AAA and LE agencies as a tool to lobby against higher limits.
{As far as sending you these reports Mr. Young, what are you the arbiter of all traffic crash investigations? Hey Sarge! Did you send those reports off to Mr. Young for approval yet? He needs to second guess everything we do!}
That isn’t what I said. I don’t expect you to send me anything. You made a claim of a particular anomalous crash, apparently due to poor engineering that comports with my prior experience, and I asked where and when it occurred. You tell me that and I’ll have my colleagues retrieve the information.
As to being second guessed, get used to it. Everybody’s work is reviewed at some point and in some form. You, a public employee, prepared a report that is public information but you don’t want the public to review it because they’ll criticize you for it?
{ Crashes like what I’ve described happen in every state. They are not some rare anomaly that occur once in a blue moon!}
Then show us how often and where vehicles suddenly fly off the road because they’re going too fast. You made the assertion; you bear the burden of proof. Does it happen? Of course, and here’s a hint: suicide. While total fatal crash rates have declined for several years, single-car leaving the roadway crashes have increased. How better to camouflage a suicide so that the insurance company still has to pay?
{If you want to obtain a real view of traffic crash investigations why don’t you contact IPTM.org and enroll in a crash investigation school. This might educate you a little more when it come to factors in traffic crashes! }
While I’m always eager to learn more, I would prefer an independent agent rather than the insurance/enforcement industry hack. The best I ever read was the Harvard School of Public Health (assisted by engineers from MIT) but that was a task force, not a continuing entity.
{Violent crime is at a record high! Oh, wait!! That must be the way LE records the information!}
Complete BS. Go to http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm and then tell us where the record is. To be sure, some rates spiked in 2006 but the trend since 1994 has been down. Whether the spikes are the beginning of a new trend or are merely random fluctuations remains to be seen. The key to credibility is to know what you’re talking about and to avoid making unsupported and unsupportable claims.
IPTM is not some “hack” arm of the scamsurance industry. It’s a part of the University of North Florida, an accredited school. In fact, Masters students receive credit towards their degrees if they manage to pass the THI curriculum. It’s a lesson in scientific reconstruction’s, not BS numbers, but real science, recognized through out the world! They have schools in the EU and Australia. How can you criticize LE on one hand then refer to the statistic kept by us on the other??? BTW, the DOJ information your referenced ended in 2005. I can tell you that violent crime is on the increase! Orlando has seen record numbers of homicides in the recent years. And working in the community, not watching the liberal lying media, tells ME that violent crime in increasing, not to mention the frequent symposiums that my administration attends. BTW, UCR’s are the TRUE way to account for crime stats.
Oh, I stopped a “speeder” today. She was doing 88 in a posted 45. Her license was suspended and she was a felony habitual traffic violator. Shall I pass on some crazy non-law to see if you can help to get her out of troubles?
You know this could seeming go on forever!
But, speed limits will remain! I win!! You loose!! Hope you get a ticket! LOL!! Nothing you can do about that! NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!
{IPTM is not some “hack” arm of the scamsurance industry}
Is it not funded in large part by the insurance industry, very similar to the funding by extremely conservative corporations for the rightwing Hoover Institute at Stanford?
{How can you criticize LE on one hand then refer to the statistic kept by us on the other???}
Because your own statistics don’t support your stated case. This is what happens with NHTSA, which gets its data in large part from police reports of crashes, but when those data are tabulated, they prove a case almost a polar opposite to their own verbiage.
{BTW, the DOJ information your referenced ended in 2005. I can tell you that violent crime is on the increase!}
Which is exactly why I wrote right in that post, “To be sure, some rates spiked in 2006 but the trend since 1994 has been down. Whether the spikes are the beginning of a new trend or are merely random fluctuations remains to be seen.” In any case, the spikes are not records as you asserted.
{But, speed limits will remain! I win!! You loose!![sic] Hope you get a ticket! LOL!! Nothing you can do about that! NANY NANY BOO BOO!! LOL!!!!}
Aside from the childishness, your perspective is wrong. We have already gotten limits raised from 55 to 80 in Texas. As I write this, Utah is working on going to 80 and Wyoming and Montana are sure to follow. Yet, even as limits increase, the predictions of a bloodbath (their word) by IIHS, AAA, NHTSA and all the usual safety Nazis has never eventuated.
In my 2 million+ miles of driving, I’ve had only a dozen or so tickets, or one every 167K miles. I’ve had one cite since 1994. I’ve also had zero at-fault crashes. You should encourage other drivers to emulate me.